I’d like Attractional with a side of Missional and just a dash of Organic, please

Bob Hyatt at the bob.blog recently had a post quoting an article on the missional vs attractional church model. This topic has been turning in my mind a lot over the past few weeks and I thought I’d take a few minutes over lunch (corned beef Rueben on wheat, side of pasta salad and a Diet Coke) to sort through my thoughts on this topic. Feel free to disagree, agree or ignore, I’m pretty early on in my thinking on this subject.

First my definition of terms as I understand them:

1. Attractional: A model that says church should be an appealing, non-threatening environment to present the Gospel so that seekers can come and see. Relational connections flow out of these larger gatherings. Picture a large circus tent with people streaming in from every direction.
2. Organic: A model that says seekers will be exposed to the Gospel through relationships with members in their community. Relational connections may flow into larger gatherings. Picture a group of pup tents with a campfire in the middle.
3. Missional: A mindset that says the every member of the body of Christ is called as a missionary to her own culture and community. The missionary may or may not connect to a larger gathering of believers. Picture a climber pitching his tent high on Mt. Everest.

While I’m sure these definitions are incomplete and possibly way off target, they describe the discussion as I see it. Second let me share my background in commenting on the discussion:

1. I have had the privilege of connecting with many of the leaders of the best known “attractional” churches in the country such as Lakewood, Saddleback, Willow Creek, North Point, Lifechurch, Fellowship and many others. It seems that many of the people who throw rocks at the circus tents have never spent much time inside; God has given me the unique opportunity of sitting down with the lion tamers and acrobats and hearing where their passions lie.

2. I'm on staff at what from the outside would seem to be a poster child for the attractional way of doing church.

3. I’ve also had the opportunity to connect with some of the Cub Scout leaders (the ones with the pup tents), although more indirectly than with the circus people. I’ve met some of the leaders in the emerging church movement such as Doug Pagitt, Dan Kimball, Brian McClaren, Tim Celek, and John Burke. I've also had some great conversations with the folks at Leadership Network who pulled together most of these guys in the first place. I’m early on in my study of their campgrounds, but I feel like I have somewhat of a feel for their desire to serve God and his world.

4. I’m reading everything I can to get my arms around postmodern, emerging, missional and organic. One of my early awakenings was Reggie McNeal’s The Present Future and I’ve had the opportunity to spend some time with Reggie unpacking the concepts. Other books in my education so far include A New Kind of Christian and The Story We Find Ourselves In by McLaren, Breaking the Missional Code by Stetzer, The Organic Church by Neil Cole, The Radical Reformission and Confessions of a Reformission Rev by Driscoll, all of Donald Miller's books and a variety of other artcles, blogs and books somewhat in the emerging genre.

None of this so say that I'm anybody (I'm not), that I'm more qualified than the next person to comment (I'm not) or that I have a good understanding of where the church is going next (I don't). I'm simply sorting through my mental files and sharing what's in the boxes. So here are my thoughts.

First, I've never seen a purely attractional church. Every church I've been connected with is deeply concerned with helping people become disciples of Christ. When I've sat down with the staff at the largest mega-churches in America they are all exerting an incredible amount of energy to discover new and better ways to help people grow in Christ. I'm sure that there are churches in America who care only about making the turnstile spin on the weekends, but I've never experienced one.

Second, I've never seen a purely missional church; every church I've seen has a desire to be attractive (from the Greek root "attractional") They sweep the floors, turn on the lights, set the air conditioner. They buy sound systems so the musicians and speakers can be heard, they set up chairs, they make coffee. While they may never buy a billboard or send out a mass mailer, every church I've seen makes an effort to be attractive to those who might attend. And the ones who do a good job grow. Bob wrote recently about experiencing so much growth he was having nightmares about having to start a video venue.

Third, every church I've been around is missional; they all see their members as missionaries in their communities. This whole idea started with Jesus when he told us to go into all the world and make disciples. His final instructions before he caught the last cloud back to heaven said our job was to share the good news in our neighborhood. So called attractional churches see the weekend service as an intregal part of fulfilling this missional calling. While their preference is that members share their lives and faith in their own neighborhood, they also recognize that most people need some help. Similar to the idea that parents should be able to teach their children to read and write, but we need schools to help, attractional churches see their weekend services as aid stations for their member/missionaries.

Fourth, Jesus ministry was both missional and attractional. He sent his disciples out into the communtiy with nothing but the clothes on their backs on a missional journey to share the Kingdom with the world. (I bet they smelled pretty organic after a few days on the road.) At the same time he performed many miracles which attracted large crowds to which he taught Kingdom principles. It is obvious that he wasn't simply healing the sick, feeding the hungry or raising the dead; there was a reason why he performed the miracles he did, when and where he performed them. At least some part of the motivation behind some of the miracles was to give the Gospel a wider audience than just the twelve. If not he would not have wasted his time teaching the crowds when they came. One of the best Biblical examples of an attractional style of ministry occured when the charismatics got crazy on the day of Pentecost and thousands came to hear Peter throw down the Word. And someone took the time to count how many people connected with the church that day as though they felt big numbers were a good thing.

Finally, we are spending way too much timing criticizing everyone else's way of doing church. I have so much to learn from how you do church, how you build biblical community, how you grow disciples that I really don't have time to pick at your methods. God will probably lead me in a different direction than the one you are taking, but that's ok. As long as we're both pursuing him and bringing others along with us I think our methods are somewhat irrelevant.

So for me the ultimate church is an attractional, missional body of believers growing organically through every means possible. We seem to waste so much energy throwing rocks at other people's tents we lose sight of the fact we have a very limited time on earth to spread the Good News and to build Kingdom community. If your church meets in a stadium, hires a rock band and is seeing people becoming disciples of Christ, that is very cool. If your church meets in a bar, features dialog rather than sermons and is seeing people becoming disciples of Christ, that is very cool as well.

And hey, Hey, HEY put down that rock!

Comments

[bob]

Thanks for the shout-out, Geoff (and the blog link!)... a couple of ideas.

I can't recommend highly enough the book "The Shaping of Things to Come" by Frost and Hirsch- on many issues but particularly this one. Honorable mention to The Great Giveaway by Fitch.

Like Paul, I'm happy that in all ways and shapes the Gospel is preached. That being said, I also want to realize (like Paul) that some motivations in ministry are better than others, because I think they tend to form different things in us and in our communities.

For me, methods can't be irrelevant because ends do not justify means. The issue isn't purely "what will get people in the seats?" but how the way we get them there informs who they become in our community. How does our methodology spiritually form us? How will what we do as a community form those who are part of it and who are becoming part of it? I realize that all (well, most... okay, many... uh,some) churches are asking the same question. I happen to be a part of a stream that is highly sensitive to the more consumer nature of church and its impact on us as pastors and on whole communities as followers of Jesus. I wrote about this in Escape From Consumer Church(http://www.dtour.com.au/articles/article.cfm?id=89) and even The Dangers of Easter.(http://bobhyatt.typepad.com/bobblog/2007/03/the_dangers_of_.html)

So to me, "Attractional with a side of Missional" doesn't quite get there- mainly because of (what I see) as the spiritually negative formative issues involved in the attractional model. I want to be clear- I don't think you guys doing a more attractional model or video venues are wrong. I'm not throwing rocks. I just have concerns about long-term impacts...

But I think you are entirely correct- there's no such thing as a purely this or purely that church. We're all of us somehwere on the spectrum. I just think it's important to be cogniscent of and intentional about which way we lean...

Yes- I want to be attractive. There will always be a "come and see" aspect to community. But in that, my two main hopes are:
1. I hope what people are being invited to come and see and what they are actually being drawn to is the aroma of Jesus among us, the way He lives in our community as opposed to our killer light show or cutting edge this or that.
2. That "come and see" always takes a back seat to "go and be."

I've always said that if our community can't grow by the quality of our relationships (as opposed to the quality of our advertising, kids programs, etc) we probably don't deserve to. That doesn't mean we pay NO attention to the quality of what we do... but we're a lot more relaxed about a lot of things. I care about how the music sounds, but mainly so it's not a distraction. Our real energies go into being a warm, welcoming community that's centered on Jesus... that's hard enough without throwing a lot of issues of production into the mix!

But even so, even our little pub church (that won't do a video venue, but may end up doing multiple sites each with their own main teaching pastor) is still struggling with this- come and see is just so much easier.

And that should probably tell us something, since the best way is rarely the easiest.

All that being said- thanks so much for your willingness to read widely and dialogue this stuff!

[bob]

Oh... and we meet in a bar and have sermons WITH dialogue, not dialogue rather than sermons :)

[Geoff Surratt]

Hey Bob,
Thanks for stopping by and chatting. I appreciate your perspective.

A couple of things always challenge me in this type of discussion. The first is represented by the statement:

"The issue isn't purely "what will get people in the seats?"..."

The implication is that this is the primary motivation for those on the other side of the fence. My point is that I don't know a single church leader with that perspective; its a straw man arguement. Every sincere church leader (and most that I've met are sincere)is deeply concerned about what happens after (and before) someone shows up for a church service. Spiritual formation is their goal. Its like a net fisherman and a rod and reel fisherman arguing about who really cares about catching fish. (To paraphrase an analogy from Jesus) Different tools, same goal.

A second challenge is the thought that if something is easier it must not be the right way:

"And that should probably tell us something, since the best way is rarely the easiest."

If I wanted to go to Portland from South Carolina I could walk, I could hire a taxi, I could take a bus or I could fly. Now I could develop a lot of maturity during the walk, I could form a deep relationship on the taxi ride, I could experience a unique community while riding the bus, but on my one trip to Portland I flew. Once I got there I matured, connected and experienced, but I'm still convinced easier was better in case.

I realize this analogy breaks down in about 27 places, but the point is just because something presents fewer obstacles it may still be a good way to go.

For instance, Bob, from everything I read evergreen seems to be a very attractive place to visit. It sounds like a safe place where I could investigate Christianity within a comfortable atmosphere somewhat like the old tv show Cheers(I'm old, I have old references) If I were living in Portland and not connected to a faith community that would appeal to me. If I heard about it (maybe from stumbling across the bob.blog while searching for pubs in Portland) I think I'd like to come. And if I came I might meet some people I could connect with. And if I connected I might find faith. And if I found faith I might begin to grow into the mature Christ-follower God created me to become. Now I came in the wrong door (the attractional one), but I ended up a mature Christ-follower. Is that so bad?

As to evergreen going multi-site, that's awesome. Video venue would be silly in your context, but an evergreen in every pub in Portland would be very cool. If we can help in any way (multiple sites can lead to multiple headaches regardless the teaching style) please let me know.

And sorry about the dialog vs. sermon comment, my bad.

[bob]

hey man-
Good thoughts... I hear what you are saying...

I probably should have said it more like:
"Since we both agree the issue isn't purely 'what will get people in the seats?'..."

You said:"The implication is that this is the primary motivation for those on the other side of the fence. My point is that I don't know a single church leader with that perspective; its a straw man arguement. "
I know that we're all concerned with what happens next, which is why I think we should be more concerned with what happens first...
So, I don't know that it's quite a straw man argument. I hear an awful lot of church growth type guys saying things like "...I think our methods are somewhat irrelevant." :)

I just don't think they are. I 'm excited about anyone coming to Christ, any time, anywhere...
I'm also convinced that certain methodologies might have longterm impact in spiritual development, both for individuals and for communities.

In other words, I'm highly skeptical of the marriage of Christianity and American marketing techniques and consumerism. I think that when those two go hand in hand, people may still come to know Jesus, but the unintended side effects for the church as a whole may suggest we pursue other metholodologies.

To use your fishing example- we may both be fishermen, but if someone's methods are or might be (like driftnetting) ultimately harmful, it's not wrong for someone to ask those questions.

I hope that doesn't sound jerky at all... I'm not saying I've got it figured out- we're still very much in process...

But all that to say, I enjoy talking this stuff out and would love to hash out some ideas and thoughts on multi-site churches that use different teaching pastors and use that growth to plant other "hub" churches that will replicate the pattern.... lots of ideas swirling in my head, some that are probably good, some that are probably the opposite of good :)

Maybe if you are at the NPC again...

[Ken]

Great discussion on the Mega/Emergent conversation. I am hearing about this more and more. Bob, I like the straw man concept. We rarely measure up to our critics expectations.

I reposted excerpt in my blog.

[brad brisco]

Geoff

Great post. As I was reading several thoughts were coming to mind and then I read Bob's comments which nailed what I was thinking (and several things I hadn't thought of) so I will not repeat, except to say that yes there are no "pure" one or the other, but you are very fortunate if the churches you have been a part are/have been a part of have seen themselves as missionaries to the community. This is certainly not what I have experienced or see in the churches in which I work.

I would also add to Bob's recommendation of "Shaping" Hirsch's newest book "The Forgotten Ways."

[Rick Meigs]

Geoff,

Thanks for this post. You are expressing the feelings of many who are attempting to get a grip on this whole attractional, missional, organic thing. Unfortunately, there just isn't enough time or space to fully explore topic here, but maybe just a few thoughts from my perspective.

You rightly note when laying out the definitions that "attractional" is a model and "missional" is a mindset. The distinction is the heart of the matter.

Usually when leaders talk about being attractional, the discussion centers on how they do "church" on Sunday morning. Are we attractive and appealing? I'm not suggesting that they aren't also deeply concerned with helping their people grow spiritually, but the attractional model is about being attractive to the seeker. I'm also not saying this is wrong nor I'm I throwing rocks. As you noted, every faith community should want and work at being attractive and comfortable to the not-yet-Christian. But at its heart, attractional is a model for doing church which the leadership attempt to implement.

Missional on the other hand is a mindset. A mindset of both the people and the leadership. It has nothing to do with method or model. It has to do with the very nature of who we are a followers of Jesus. Are we merely devotees, who, as a mark of our faith, attend church weekly and often invite our friends and neighbors to join us, or are we disciples of Jesus whose life is consumed 24/7/365 with, as Alan Hirsch stated it, "the practical outworking of the mission of God (the missio dei) and of the incarnation"?

As Bob stated, I too am "I'm highly skeptical of the marriage of Christianity and American marketing techniques and consumerism." I believe it produces a Jesus follower who is primarily a devotee who spends most of their time and energies on pursuing the same "American Dream" as their not-yet-Christians neighbors. Again, not throwing rocks, just expressing a concern.

Finally, you stated that "for me the ultimate church is an attractional, missional body of believers growing organically through every means possible." I remember the time well when I would have said a big "Amen" to that. But I don't believe "growth" should be our objective. Loving the Lord our God, our neighbors, and making disciples of all people is at the heart of missional.

Thank you Geoff (and Bob) for a thoughtful and gracious dialog.

[Heath]

Love your blog Geoff. You are right on. Overall I wish the titles of each of these kinds of things would just go away. I keep up with what is going around in the church, but there are so man new ones that I still feel kinda lost. Lets love God and love people. Everything else seems to work itself out in the wash. Once again great blog!

By the way, would you be interested in coming to Northern Indiana and preaching at our multi-site church? www.churchoftheheartland.com

Heath

[Greg Laughery]

Thanks Geoff for this insightful post, and the helpful and gracious discussion w/ Bob and others here.

Hope we can all learn to stop throwing rocks, and become performers in God's theodrama, faithfully following the crucified and risen One, and attending to God's global mission to the world.

[Ormly]

"You must be Born Again" is a very exclusive message that is noticably absent from this new age, emergent church message. I believe the reasons are obvious to one with discernment.
I have been wondering for quite sometime that it has been the purpose of this new post-modern emergent church to interfere with Biblical discernment, not unlike what the Catholic church did by keeping the word of God from the masses for fear they would be found out. In the case of this new "church" it seems what is allowed is that which turns the word of God into a lie while calling it truth.
Take note of the plethora of books that reduce the message of Jesus Christ to a 10-12 step program anyone can do without the Holy Spirit involvement; without the need to be Born Again.

Here is two valuable links that may help some understand whats going on:

http://www.reinventingjesuschrist.com/

http://www.inthenameofpurpose.org/page2.html

[John Lambert]

Great post. Love the comment, "We seem to waste so much energy throwing rocks at other people's tents we lose sight of the fact we have a very limited time on earth to spread the Good News and to build Kingdom community." I see this as a strong trend in our ranks. It's seems very hip to be cynical and skeptical of everything that doesn't fit our mindset. I don't feel that we have time for this. The hour is late and the time is urgent to preach the Gospel to the nations beginning at home. I like when Paul said, to paraphrase, that he didn't care why people were preaching Christ as long as he was being preached.

[ormly]

That may be truly spoken of by Paul, however, I don't read where he had in mind a church that catered to the "felt -needs" of people; promoting the exclusive message of the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ using dialogue and "cotton candy" as methods and tools with which to do so. That's man's reasoning and not that of the Holy Spirit.
Ever hear of the Nicolaitanes? God's hates them.

[Geoff Surratt]

1 Corinthians 9:19 - 23 (NIV) 19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Hmmm...

[ormly]

1 Corinthians 9:19 - 23 (NIV) 19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Hmmm, indeed. Show where Paul intended for this as the example of the post-modern, bubble gum church and you might win me. Somehow, though, I don't believe you can do that. It just isn't in his words; what he was about.

Bringing son's into Glory is the message of Jesus Christ; is the message of His good news. If you could understand that the revelation of Himself imparted to those you desire to convert, is the only thing that will sustain them once they "see" Him. You won't need your bubble gum and cotton candy; your entertainment, Starbucks coffee and your tables full of "self-help books".

I hope you will take this to your heart.

FWIW, Rick Warren is a pluralist...and that by his own admition. I hope you won't ignore that in your thinking.

[Geoff Surratt]

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Can you feel the love?

[ormly]

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Can you feel the love?

Indeed, I feel that much from His own; those truly seeking His Face--Of the others, caught up in the snare of the "consensus" church, only accusation and arrogance..

Time is short. Will there be any Faith OF Him left when He returns? No doubt, a few. How few is coming frightenly into view.

[Tony Myles]

Perhaps the issue is less what we think and put on our web sites about our churches and more what we are known for... both in the church circle of our region as well as the unchurched clusters.

Are we "that cool church who does a lot of videos?"

Are we "that real relational group who's always hanging out?"

Are we "that nice bunch of people who gave backpacks to the poor in the community?"

Maybe all of them can be true, but my guess is one of them dominates the watercooler conversations.

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